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> IIDX on HDTV, revisited, ... now accepting any and all pointers
Oogami
post Aug 9 2006, 01:55 PM
Post #21


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QUOTE(fubarduck @ Aug 9 2006, 05:24 AM) *
Sup noobies,

As an old-school IIDX player myself I feel obliged to add my two cents (since there is a ton of misinformation in this thread).

- CRT HDTV does not equal no lag. Lag is caused mainly by HDTV's built in upscaler, which takes a 480i signal (from Beatmania, for example) and converts it to the HDTV's native resolution. HDTVs can never display a 480i signal "natively" which is why it will always lag. This means that all HDTVs will lag on IIDX by at least a few frames.


I'm not so sure that's true. When I was doing research for our TV back in 2005, I was desperate to find something that would not give me the dreaded lag problem, and on numerous HDTV and HD gaming sites I read that some models DO support 480i sans upscaling. It's just that most do not and just rely on the upscaler for 480i pictures. When I was doing my shopping I specifically looked at TVs which listed 480i, 720i, and 1080i as supported resolutions. I picked one of those, and wala, no lag. And from having dealt with playing IIDX on a variety of TV setups in both arcades and peoples' homes, not to mention am fairly adept at the game, I can tell laggy IIDX from non-laggy IIDX. And my Panasonic does not produce laggy IIDX.

Also, I remain skeptical about these so-called quick fixes to the lag problem as similar products and solutions had existed a while back. Some people reported success, whereas others informed of a huge loss in picture quality, sometimes without the lag being fully eliminated. Once these products hit the market and have enjoyed universal acclaim, then I'll believe it, but considering I'm still quite happy with our Panasonic, I doubt I'd change out my TV.


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fubarduck
post Aug 9 2006, 02:14 PM
Post #22


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QUOTE
Nice first post. dry.gif

Sorry, I quit playing IIDX seriously in 2001 before sites like this existed!

QUOTE(Oogami @ Aug 9 2006, 01:55 PM) *
I'm not so sure that's true. When I was doing research for our TV back in 2005, I was desperate to find something that would not give me the dreaded lag problem, and on numerous HDTV and HD gaming sites I read that some models DO support 480i sans upscaling. It's just that most do not and just rely on the upscaler for 480i pictures.

This is completely untrue. No consumer-grade HDTV supports 480i sans upscaling; in fact, there aren't even any EDTVs that support 480i natively. Even EDTVs deinterlace the source and can natively display only 480p.

QUOTE
When I was doing my shopping I specifically looked at TVs which listed 480i, 720i, and 1080i as supported resolutions. I picked one of those, and wala, no lag.

Look around--pretty much every HDTV lists 480i, 480p, 720p (since there's no such thing as 720i), and 1080i as "supported resolutions". The phrase "supported resolutions" is actually a bit deceiving.

A supported resolution is a resolution that the HDTV supports, meaning it can take that resolution, scale it to its own native resolution, and then display it at that native resolution. When an HDTV takes a supported resolution (example: 480i) it has to upscale it to its native resolution (example: 720p) so this is where the lag is introduced.

A native resolution is a resolution that the HDTV actually outputs--so if your HDTV's native resolution is 720p (the common native resolution of DLPs), and you feed it a 720p signal, the image is displayed directly with no scaling done. However, if you feed it a 480p signal for example, scaling is required and lag is introduced.

One of the other reasons CRT HDTVs typically come "on top" when it comes to lack of lag is that some CRT HDTVs have TWO native resolutions--480p and 1080i (there are no CRTs with native 720p). Your Panasonic may be one of these--I wouldn't know unless we had the exact model # to work with.

That means that when you give it a 480i signal (from IIDX) it only has to go up to 480p rather than up to high definition. However, the TV doing this process would still most certainly introduce some lag, albeit maybe not much or perhaps not even noticeable.

On another note, it's actually quite annoying but HDTV specs often do not list the native resolution of the set--only the "supported resolutions". Discovering the native resolution typically involves looking at the company's official site for the HDTV, calling the company, or sometimes even searching online home-theater forums such as AVS Forum.

QUOTE
And from having dealt with playing IIDX on a variety of TV setups in both arcades and peoples' homes, not to mention am fairly adept at the game, I can tell laggy IIDX from non-laggy IIDX. And my Panasonic does not produce laggy IIDX.


I beg to differ.

Why don't you try splitting a Composite or S-Video cable and outputting it to a Standard Definition TV and your Panasonic at the same time. Next, use a digital camera to take pictures in the middle of any song on Hi-Speed in Expert. I guarantee that each set of pictures you snap will have different scores.

Just because you can't perceive lag doesn't mean it isn't there. One or two frames of lag isn't that hard to get used to--the real question is whether or not it bothers you. If it doesn't, there is no problem--but it might bother other people.

QUOTE
Also, I remain skeptical about these so-called quick fixes to the lag problem as similar products and solutions had existed a while back. Some people reported success, whereas others informed of a huge loss in picture quality, sometimes without the lag being fully eliminated. Once these products hit the market and have enjoyed universal acclaim, then I'll believe it, but considering I'm still quite happy with our Panasonic, I doubt I'd change out my TV.


These "so-called quick fixes" are the real fixes--the fixes that have actually been tested and working by home-theater enthusiasts and experts around the world now. What "similar products and solutions" do you speak of? There aren't any that I know of--in fact, I wrote the FAQ highlighting the first discovered fix as a first-generation HDTV owner.
Using XRGB-2/XRGB-2+ is probably the best fix for PS2 with the lowest drop in image quality, and these products have existed for ages.

Also, there are some HDTVs that still lag even if you send them a 480p signal--namely DLPs. The reason next month's solutions will work is because they will make a high-definition signal out of the PS2 before it reaches the HDTV for scaling.

If you have any more questions, my FAQ can be found on sites such as AVS Forum (google) or if you'd prefer a different source, check out IGN Gear's recent articles on the subject which will basically re-iterate what I just told you.

This post has been edited by fubarduck: Aug 9 2006, 02:25 PM
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FrozenHalo
post Aug 9 2006, 02:28 PM
Post #23


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I just think its quite odd to come out of no where, jump on a random thread in a fourm after just registering and refering to all of the fourms users as "noobies."


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has more teeth than you
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Oogami
post Aug 9 2006, 02:33 PM
Post #24


Candy Galy
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QUOTE(fubarduck @ Aug 9 2006, 03:14 PM) *
stuff


I guess I got schooled! Geeze, where were you when I was out TV shopping last year? I did a lot of poking around various HD sites and whatnot, but I guess even those places are chock-full of misinformation. Oh well, I enjoy the TV I got immensely anyways.

I agree with FrozenHalo that it is a bit random you just popped up here, particularly if you quit playing seriously five years ago.


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fubarduck
post Aug 9 2006, 02:49 PM
Post #25


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QUOTE(FrozenHalo @ Aug 9 2006, 02:28 PM) *
I just think its quite odd to come out of no where, jump on a random thread in a fourm after just registering and refering to all of the fourms users as "noobies."


My bad! I'll edit my post and make it more politcally correct. ninja.gif

Anyway, I just stumbled into this forum when I was googling for XRGB-3 reviews (I'm still awaiting mine in the mail). When I saw how much misinformation there was in this thread, I couldn't help but reply--I still feel like I have a duty to Bemani players! cool.gif
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Mafia Boss
post Aug 9 2006, 04:23 PM
Post #26


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FWIW, we have a Panasonic PT-56DLX75 here at work and I decided to hook up a PS2 to it (via cheapo composite cables) and play some IIDX.

I couldn't perceive any significant lag--at least, if there was any, I was able to compensate for it right away. The playing experience was totally fine. The screen wasn't super bright, but lag-wise it was no problem.

I had to play with a KOC in my lap and so my scores were awful--barely able to squeeze out a AAA on Nothin' Ain't Stoppin' Us!--but I am pretty confident that had nothing to do with the TV. (I am used to an ASC on a table; I have no idea how to play with the controller in my lap! I had to use the edge of my left hand to hold it still and any time complicated patterns came up I was doomed.)
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FoxFireX
post Aug 9 2006, 07:06 PM
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May as well pitch in my experience as well. We decided to really go all out on getting an HD unit, and got the Fujitsu P50XHA10U 50" plasma. The reason I wanted this one was because it had the best-recommended internal scaler. I don't perceive any lag on the screen, and can play as well at home as in the arcade. Probably better than at the arcade, actually. You can see my setup on a page I actually put up for my homemade controllers, but the screen is visible. Maybe there is some lag involved, but it doesn't hamper me in playing.

I'm using component output from the PS2. One thing that may help is to run the audio through a receiver. If the audio goes into the TV, and the TV does have lag, it could delay the audio as well to keep things synchronized. If that happens, you're pretty much SOL.
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Akur0
post Aug 14 2006, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE(fubarduck @ Aug 9 2006, 05:24 AM) *
Both of these solutions are retailing for less than $50, so if you can wait about three weeks you'll probably never have to play a laggy game again on your HDTV.


you sir are amazing, I was looking for a video converter and I was hitting up prices that were in the 10K range @_@.

*edit*

I found a way to get an estimate of the price conversion and 29.99 in euro is equal to about 38 bucks in the states if you round downwards.

awesome


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AEUGNewtype
post Aug 16 2006, 04:49 PM
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I have a 30" CRT widescreen HDTV and I use it to play IIDX, I usually set the screen to 4:3 mode, though, it seems not to lag on that, but sometimes when I have it set on Widescreen mode, it lags a little and the sides of the screen get a little fuzzy, but I get AAAs on it often with 4:3 mode, that's the only first-hand pointers I can give from experience. I've heard plasmas and LCDs lag almost indefinitely, but some CRTs can handle it, and I guess mine is one of those.


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Mafia Boss
post Sep 17 2006, 12:09 AM
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Bump smile.gif

I have just ordered a Samsung LN-S4692D 46" LCD TV, check it out: http://www.pricegrabber.com/rating_getprod...63866/id_type=M
I was too impulsive and I got it without doing a live IIDX test, but it has a game mode so I am hopeful that it will be good.
So, has anyone heard anything more about the Splitfish hdfx product? I'd love to buy one but I don't know where they are available yet (if anywhere).
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Oogami
post Sep 18 2006, 07:31 PM
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Candy Galy
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Looks pretty neat. If I had money and weren't still loving my Panasonic CRT I'd totally go for it, too.


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Mafia Boss
post Sep 18 2006, 08:15 PM
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Man, don't tell me both these products were vaporware.
sad.gif
I'm feeling impatient...
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Mafia Boss
post Sep 21 2006, 12:33 AM
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Has anyone tried the Hori Upscan Converter 2?
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-86-49-...-1.html#reviews

My new TV does have a VGA port so this is an option. I'm wondering if this will get rid of interlacing effects. If so, that'd be worth the money right there.

EDIT: No progressive scan: http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/HP2-143P2.html T_T
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fubarduck
post Sep 21 2006, 12:51 AM
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QUOTE(Mafia Boss @ Sep 21 2006, 12:33 AM) *
Has anyone tried the Hori Upscan Converter 2?
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-86-49-...-1.html#reviews

My new TV does have a VGA port so this is an option. I'm wondering if this will get rid of interlacing effects. If so, that'd be worth the money right there.

EDIT: No progressive scan: http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/HP2-143P2.html T_T


The Upscan Converter 2 works just fine, it outputs a 640x480 VGA signal (which is progressive).

You simply misunderstood the NCSX page. "No progressive scan support" means that you can't enable progressive scan in the actual PS2 game. So, 480i in, 640x480 VGA out. All VGA signals are progressive scan. Monitors do not use interlacing like televisions do.
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Mafia Boss
post Sep 23 2006, 11:25 AM
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QUOTE(fubarduck @ Sep 21 2006, 12:51 AM) *
The Upscan Converter 2 works just fine, it outputs a 640x480 VGA signal (which is progressive).

You simply misunderstood the NCSX page. "No progressive scan support" means that you can't enable progressive scan in the actual PS2 game. So, 480i in, 640x480 VGA out. All VGA signals are progressive scan. Monitors do not use interlacing like televisions do.

No, that's how I understood the NCSX page, but I am hoping to find a solution which enables progressive scan on the PS2. Like the defunct Blaze VGA box, or certain mod chips (though sadly, I have no mod chipped PS2s to experiment with).

My understanding was that the Splitfish or Xploder products would also get older PS2 games to output progressive scan. (Splitfish already has experience with tweaking PS2 games' video output beyond what the programmers originally expected--see their 3D glasses product.)
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Mafia Boss
post Oct 8 2006, 02:29 PM
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BTW, I've just received the new Samsung LCD TV.
It's huge and gorgeous. The picture is bright, colorful and sharp.
Unfortunately I can no longer play IIDX at all. It is pretty obviously lagged; game mode actually doesn't seem to affect it at all (it just dims the picture a bit AFAICS). I am finding that, for Light-7 songs that I should be able to massacre, my scores are looking like this:
JG 2/6
GR 3/6
GD 1/6
BD a few
PR a few
POINTS 165000

sad.gif sad.gif
Oh well, this is where the fun and experimentation begins.
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Mafia Boss
post Oct 8 2006, 11:05 PM
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With some experimentation, I've gotten slightly better results. Still not nearly where I was, though.
Right now I'm running with the following config:
- Game mode on (if this affects latency, it's minor)
- Digital noise reduction off (not sure if this helps, but honestly it looks fine either way and any picture post-processing is probably bad news)
- Component cables (WOW! big picture quality improvement over S-Video! worth $15 for sure)

Honestly, I was pretty surprised at this, but the change that seemed to matter the most was switching to 4:3 and using Original mode instead of Arcade. I think my brain is completely hard-wired to the 4:3 layout, and any change at all throws me off.
I still haven't seen any AAAs, but I got 179000 on Attitude[a]. Maybe in a week or two I'll be back to where I was.
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fubarduck
post Oct 8 2006, 11:32 PM
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QUOTE(Mafia Boss @ Oct 8 2006, 11:05 PM) *
With some experimentation, I've gotten slightly better results. Still not nearly where I was, though.
Right now I'm running with the following config:
- Game mode on (if this affects latency, it's minor)
- Digital noise reduction off (not sure if this helps, but honestly it looks fine either way and any picture post-processing is probably bad news)
- Component cables (WOW! big picture quality improvement over S-Video! worth $15 for sure)

Honestly, I was pretty surprised at this, but the change that seemed to matter the most was switching to 4:3 and using Original mode instead of Arcade. I think my brain is completely hard-wired to the 4:3 layout, and any change at all throws me off.
I still haven't seen any AAAs, but I got 179000 on Attitude[a]. Maybe in a week or two I'll be back to where I was.


Actually, some HDTVs actually lag MORE in 16:9 than in 4:3 when processing 480i content! You can see a great example of this at http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com. I wouldn't be surprised if you were actually getting better latency in the 4:3 mode.

Hopefully, that Xploder disc will drop soon. I'm pretty much waiting for that before I touch any 480i games on my PS2 again.

This post has been edited by fubarduck: Oct 8 2006, 11:32 PM
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Mafia Boss
post Oct 9 2006, 12:34 AM
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Great page, duck. Did you make it yourself or find it?
I am dying for the Splitfish or Xploder to ship. In the interim I can try to adjust to this delay. Obviously some people can do it.
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Mafia Boss
post Oct 11 2006, 09:48 AM
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I gave it a good try; I spent over a half hour trying to AAA Fly Away To India 7K, a simple slow song that I already have a solid AAA on. I did start to adjust to the timing a bit--in fact, I got to the point where an average play was 180K and really really good plays were 185K. (I am pretty sure my "really good" plays would have raised my score if I had been playing on my old TV.) None of the plays made it to AAA.

What I found:
- The columns in "Arcade" mode are much narrower than the columns in "Original" mode, and this is why I have to play in Original. My brain is too hard-wired to the wider Original columns. I also have a bit of trouble playing Original in 16:9 mode, but quite as much.
- The lag is the same in 16:9 and 4:3 mode.
- The lag is the same in Game Mode or non-Game Mode. (!!!) As far as I can tell, Game Mode simply cranks up the color saturation to an insane level and changes the sound mode. Thanks, Samsung!
- I am pretty sure the lag is the same with Digital Noise Reduction on or off. FWIW, the picture is the same too. I think this might only matter if you have a weak signal.
- The TV's backlight gets brighter or dimmer if the overall picture is very bright or very dim. So if you have a movie which shifts between bright white and dark black (as many IIDX movies do), you can notice the lanes getting slightly brighter or dimmer. This is kind of stupid and I wish there was a way to disable it.
- HID+ makes things worse, not better.
- I need to use slightly slower high-speeds, or less SUD+, on this TV for some reason.

I am starting to think that the biggest problem isn't the picture lag, per se. I think the bigger issue is that the TV lags the AUDIO to match the lag in the picture. If the audio was synced up, I am pretty sure that I could play in time to the audio, and the slight difference in note positioning on-screen wouldn't be an issue. I can't test this theory until I have some sort of audio output device that doesn't route through the TV, like a separate speaker system. I'll be buying speakers soon and at that point I'll be able to test the theory.
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