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> IIDX on HDTV, revisited, ... now accepting any and all pointers
Mafia Boss
post Aug 7 2006, 01:13 AM
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In a few months, I am likely to be replacing my beautiful 36" Sony Wega low-def CRT TV. It seems silly to not get an HDTV in this day and age, but I refuse to compromise my IIDX experience with lag.

Pretend that money is no object--I mean, of course it is, I'm not rich, but for the sake of discussion--what would be the best way to go? I'm thinking a CRT Wega HDTV and run it in game mode; does anyone have experience with this, and was it enough to stomp out lag? I'd also be willing to get an XRGB-3 if that's necessary. I don't think a plasma/LCD display is wise, and I am fairly confident that DLPs exhibit awful lag.

I may end up just getting a good HDTV and then get a separate CRT for gaming and put it in another room; frankly that may be the cheapest alternative. But if anyone has personal experiences to share, I'd love to hear them.
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FrozenHalo
post Aug 7 2006, 01:17 AM
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I own a HDTV, projection type.

The lag is so bad, I think its almost a quarter measure.


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Mafia Boss
post Aug 7 2006, 09:36 AM
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Have you checked to see if the TV has a game mode?
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FrozenHalo
post Aug 7 2006, 01:51 PM
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Yes, and it does not.


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Mafia Boss
post Aug 7 2006, 10:54 PM
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Anyone else using an HDTV?
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Happy man
post Aug 8 2006, 02:12 AM
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QUOTE(Mafia Boss @ Aug 7 2006, 10:54 PM) *
Anyone else using an HDTV?


I am.....

So yeah, the T.V that I'm using is a Sharp 32" Model LC-32SH20U and I must say this T.V. works great for IIDX especailly when using component cables, in fact, I recomend that you use component cables. I mean the picture still looks great with S-Video but the lower quaility of it causes higher speeds to be very hard to read. Also, this T.V. does not cost as much as the LCD ones, but it is a little bit more expensive than the CRT HD's. One down side is that there is only one socket for component cables, but it also has a HDMI port.

So yeah pictures

Back of PS2

Back of T.V.

3rd style interface to show good picture

To show that AAA are very much possible with the older style's........

As far as I can tell there is no lag, and the picture look especially great with the newer styles, no lag on those either.



Forgive my cameraphone as it lowers the look of quaility.
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over there
post Aug 8 2006, 02:51 AM
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QUOTE(Happy man @ Aug 8 2006, 03:12 AM) *



LIES! I DEMAND PROOF! WHERE IS THAT AAA NOW MY FRIEND?

I thought about getting an HD, but I don't think it's worth the risk, since I'd have to know if it worked beforehand and no place is going to let me hook up my weird ps2 and a funky controller to their brand new TVs to test them.
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Mafia Boss
post Aug 8 2006, 11:16 AM
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QUOTE(otaku1313 @ Aug 8 2006, 02:51 AM) *
I thought about getting an HD, but I don't think it's worth the risk, since I'd have to know if it worked beforehand and no place is going to let me hook up my weird ps2 and a funky controller to their brand new TVs to test them.

For three grand? They'll let you hook up whatever you damn well please. Basically you have to learn not to be shy smile.gif If they can make the sale, they could care less what you do.

QUOTE(Happy man @ Aug 8 2006, 02:12 AM) *
I mean the picture still looks great with S-Video but the lower quaility of it causes higher speeds to be very hard to read. Also, this T.V. does not cost as much as the LCD ones, but it is a little bit more expensive than the CRT HD's.

What hi-speeds do you normally play at?
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Happy man
post Aug 8 2006, 11:48 AM
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Lets just say fake time is so hard to read at Hi-speed 3, but at the arcade, it's just fine. Well its just fine now though.
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Oogami
post Aug 8 2006, 01:27 PM
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AFAIK, "game mode" on HDTVs doesn't actually have anything to do with better syncing, it simply is a particular display setting that the manufacturers feel is best for videogames. Kinda like how my TV has VIVID, STANDARD, and CINEMA preset modes (which are just varying degrees of brightness, color, and contrast). TOSHIBA TVs are the ones with "game mode", IIRC, and people who have tried their music games with those TVs have reported no difference in lag between standard and game modes.

Aside from their massive weight, there's nothing wrong with CRT HDTVs. Denise and I have a 30" Panasonic Tau 16:9 HDTV, and with component cables IIDX looks exactly the same as it does on the arcade machines with the "nu-style" monitors. It almost made this grown man cry, it did. And since there's no progressive scan enabled, there's absolutely no lag. It's the perfect music gaming monitor, and was something like $800 when we got it a year ago.

EDIT: oh yeah, and our TV has one HDMI, two component, and four video/S-video input jacks. :>


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tada
post Aug 8 2006, 02:41 PM
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I think I'll wait until HDTV technology gets a little less "primitive", so to speak. From what I read, eliminating the lag on an HDTV can cost ~$2,000. No freaking deal. May as well make a down payment on an AC machine for that cost.


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Oogami
post Aug 8 2006, 04:10 PM
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The thing is, TV manufacturers are going to have to care about the issue before it gets resolved, and since the only people really affected by the lag are VHS-tape watchers and old school/music game players (not to mention it will be a non-issue for all the new systems), I doubt it will be fixed anytime soon, if at all.

If you just HAVE to have that "home theatre" experience for your movies and hi-def games, get a DLP or a plasma for that, and a widescreen CRT for all your other stuff. Since you pretty much have to either be rich or willing to go into a ton of debt for the former, you might as well add on another few hundred bucks for the latter, too.


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post Aug 8 2006, 05:12 PM
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QUOTE(Oogami @ Aug 8 2006, 11:27 AM) *
AFAIK, "game mode" on HDTVs doesn't actually have anything to do with better syncing, it simply is a particular display setting that the manufacturers feel is best for videogames. Kinda like how my TV has VIVID, STANDARD, and CINEMA preset modes (which are just varying degrees of brightness, color, and contrast). TOSHIBA TVs are the ones with "game mode", IIRC, and people who have tried their music games with those TVs have reported no difference in lag between standard and game modes.


I have a Samsung DLP with game mode. It displays at a lower resolution so it doesn't look as good, but there is virtually no lag. It has nothing to do with the brightness/contrast/color etc.


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Mafia Boss
post Aug 8 2006, 11:44 PM
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QUOTE(chickensnack @ Aug 8 2006, 05:12 PM) *
I have a Samsung DLP with game mode. It displays at a lower resolution so it doesn't look as good, but there is virtually no lag. It has nothing to do with the brightness/contrast/color etc.

That is good to hear. DLP has really good price/performance but I heard they lagged bad. Yeah, I'm fully willing to accept a loss of picture quality--it's not like Beatmania has cutting-edge graphics anyway. smile.gif If you can get the kind of scores you get on a DLP, that's probably good enough for me!
BTW, to a previous poster, "Game mode" on many TVs is definitely meant to minimize lag. Other TVs, if you set the label on the input to "GAME," it fixes lag. There may be some TVs that don't support this, and it's just a color setting; every manufacturer is different.
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fubarduck
post Aug 9 2006, 04:24 AM
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Good evening,

As an old-school IIDX player myself I feel obliged to add my two cents (since there is a ton of misinformation in this thread).

- CRT HDTV does not equal no lag. Lag is caused mainly by HDTV's built in upscaler, which takes a 480i signal (from Beatmania, for example) and converts it to the HDTV's native resolution. HDTVs can never display a 480i signal "natively" which is why it will always lag. This means that all HDTVs will lag on IIDX by at least a few frames.

- DLP, LCD and Plasma HDTVs tend to lag slightly more than CRT HDTVs, but this is mainly because the internal scalers are inferior (for games) to the CRTs scalers. DLP, LCD and Plasma all have scalers especially engineered so that 480i (standard definition) material such as regular TV don't look crappy, which as a side effect introduces more lag. This is why some DLPs/LCDs/Plasmas have a "Game mode". "Game mode" is on the TV specifically to reduce lag, and make it closer to the CRT-style scaler. However, while "Game mode" typically reduces lag, it does NOT completely eliminate it--especially on DLPs.

- The best way to eliminate lag is to send a signal as close as possible to your HDTV's native resolution. For example, if you have a DLP with a 720p resolution, you should send it a 720p signal. This is no problem with X-Box 360 or PS3 (which will fix lag for your PS2 games by outputting the correct resolution for your HDTV). However, PS2 can usually only output 480i.

- The second best alternative is to get up to a 480p (progressive scan) signal before it gets to your HDTV for scaling. Some CRT HDTVs, such as the Sony's, support both 480p and 1080i as native resolutions. Therefore, a 480p signal on a Sony CRT HDTV will be completely lag-free. On other HDTVs, the lag would be reduced drastically or unnoticeable to the eye. The best way to get a 480p signal out of your PS2 is to use an upscan converter such as the Hori Upscan Converter 2 or XRGB-2+. A few PS2 games support 480p by themselves (by holding X and Triangle while the game starts up) but unfortunately the IIDX series has never supported this feature.



And if you were too lazy to read all that, at least read this:

There will be TWO solutions for PS2 owners at the end of this month for playing your games completely lag free on any HDTV, IIDX included:

First is the Splitfish HDFX, street date is August 31st. This device hooks up between your PS2 and HDTV and converts the resolution of all your PS2 games to 480p, 720p, 1080i, or even 1080p. Just set it to your HDTV's native resolution, and bingo, no more lag.

Next is Xploder's HDTV game upscaler, street date is September 1st. Xploder's new product is supposedly a software solution that tricks the PS2 into outputting a 480p, 720p, or 1080i signal. The image itself won't look any better than it did before, but once again, if you set it to match your HDTV's native resolution you will be playing completely lag-free IIDX.

Both of these solutions are retailing for less than $50, so if you can wait about three weeks you'll probably never have to play a laggy game again on your HDTV.

Good luck!

This post has been edited by fubarduck: Aug 9 2006, 02:50 PM
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Mafia Boss
post Aug 9 2006, 08:56 AM
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Sweet!!
I hadn't heard of these new solutions. I won't be buying my TV for at least a few months so I guess now I have my answer. Thanks for the new info smile.gif Way better than buying a $300 upscaler.

EDIT: Here's a link for the Xploder product:
http://www.xploder.net/products/148/Xploder-HDTV-Player.htm
It looks like you need to endure a disc swap every time you use it. That's a shame; too bad they couldn't find a way around that. For Swap Magic users that would be extra inconvenient smile.gif (Although hmm, maybe you don't need to use Swap Magic any more if you use this?)

EDIT2: All I can find for the Splitfish is this:
http://www.splitfish.de/hdfx.asp

Babelfish says: "hdFX engine (Playstation 2 in rear-Def)

Transform their Playstation 2 play into a highly soluble experience.

The new hdFX engine makes it possible!
See your play as highly detailed as never before. Simplest installation with maximum effect. HdFX between your Playstation 2 and your HDTV equipment and already it is only switched can go loosely!

Starting from 15/09/2006 here in the Shop available.

Further information shortly!"
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fubarduck
post Aug 9 2006, 10:35 AM
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SplitFish has an English site as well, but the site is all in Flash so I can't direct link to the HDFX. Just click on Gameware and you'll see it with the August 31st street date. Fry's Electronics and some other common retailers are listed as carrying SplitFish products, so I'm hoping we'll start seeing it pretty soon after the product's release date.
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FrozenHalo
post Aug 9 2006, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE(fubarduck @ Aug 9 2006, 05:24 AM) *
Sup noobies,

As an old-school IIDX player myself



Nice first post. dry.gif


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QUOTE (Schlagwerk @ Jan 28 2009, 02:04 PM) *
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over there
post Aug 9 2006, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE(Mafia Boss @ Aug 8 2006, 12:16 PM) *
For three grand? They'll let you hook up whatever you damn well please. Basically you have to learn not to be shy smile.gif If they can make the sale, they could care less what you do.



You, sir, don't live in Laurel, Maryland, where there is so much crime that if I so much glance at the side or back of the tvs on display I will have a guy behind my back watching me to make sure I don't steal it. The small and medium tvs are on the side of the store opposite the large ones and huge ones (and projectors too), to keep criminals from grabbing the big ones, since that place is heavily staffed and monitored. This is just a Best Buy, mind you, not the BEST OF THE BEST MITSUBISHI STORE or anything.
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Oogami
post Aug 9 2006, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE(chickensnack @ Aug 8 2006, 06:12 PM) *
I have a Samsung DLP with game mode. It displays at a lower resolution so it doesn't look as good, but there is virtually no lag. It has nothing to do with the brightness/contrast/color etc.

Ah, that must be a relatively new feature, then, as when Denise and I were shopping for our widescreen a year ago I heard numerous complaints about Samsung DLPs NOT being game-compatable at all. In fact, music games were even more unplayable on those as Samsung's earlier attempt to fix visual lag was to purposefully lag the audio as well; a simple fix for VHS watchers, but it made playing any kind of videogame virtually impossible. I experienced this firsthand a couple of years ago when I hooked up 7th Style to my grandmother's Samsung DLP, and I was disenchanted to find a year later they never fixed this. I guess they have now with "game mode", but if it's going to look worse than what it would look like on my Panasonic, then no thank you.


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