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> [VJA] 2.9 Deployed, Not-My-Doing Release
Catastrophe
post May 21 2006, 12:44 PM
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Leave the DJ points in. They're a good indicator of how seriously someone takes their scores. Taren and I both put a ton of effort into keeping 1,000+ scores up to date and somewhat competitive. That takes alot of work. I don't assume that people with just 20 hyper AAAs (on decent songs) can AAA most of hyper. To me that just means that this person can AAA their 20 best songs at that play level. I don't assume normal AAAs either because some people can't keep a beat when the notes are too far apart. Most players lack the patience, too. Anyone can AAA a 4* with persistence but only a good player can do it consistently enough to 'finish' all of the 4s. It's the same thing with my hundreds of AAs and hard clears. Someone can enter their 5 best hard clears but each song is different. If someone has a HC on Max 300, Music To Your Head 7A, and Halfway of Promise 7A, but no data on 5.1.1. 7A, then I assume that this player sucks at 5.1.1. And doubly so if they also won't spend the 2-20 minutes to master the roll at the beginning of the normal chart for the easy AAA.

Having 13,000 DJPs also means that you can DJ battle me because I actually enter all of my personal best scores when I get them. I'm not hiding my score for BtE because it's not an A. If you DJ battle me then it's going to be a fair fight. You're not going against my 50 best scores or whatever. Having 13,000 DJPs means that I've actually played (almost) everything on SP + L14 to the point where I have established a personal best and an average. I think that the people who don't want DJPs to be prominent are people who are either hiding a weakness, or people who only want to compete on the half of the game that they're better at. Now that MemoryMani exists nobody has an excuse NOT score as many DJPs as I have. (Unless of course I'm right.)

RYRY is an exception because he is trying to highlight 9 particular scores. But other than that No Data = F. Even for Oddity who has 90% AAAs 10% No Data, No Data = F. (Although Oddity has a billion DJPs anyway from AAAing 90% of the series.)


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rmz
post May 21 2006, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE(Catastrophe @ May 21 2006, 10:44 AM) *
Leave the DJ points in. They're a good indicator of how seriously someone takes their scores. Taren and I both put a ton of effort into keeping 1,000+ scores up to date and somewhat competitive. That takes alot of work. I don't assume that people with just 20 hyper AAAs (on decent songs) can AAA most of hyper. To me that just means that this person can AAA their 20 best songs at that play level.

RYRY is an exception because he is trying to highlight 9 particular scores. But other than that No Data = F. Even for Oddity who has 90% AAAs 10% No Data, No Data = F. (Although Oddity has a billion DJPs anyway from AAAing 90% of the series.)

*cough*

For me, it's the small matter that at present there are 538 unique songs in the database, most with 3 separate charts, making for over 1500 notecharts on 7k alone. If you play doubles, it stretches in the 3000 range. The main reason that I privatized (and stopped updating) all of my L7 scores was because I don't have the time to constantly and regularly go back through all of the old styles and update all of my scores. When I kept them public, I had scores that were six months old (tons of them, actually) and it completely fucked up DJ Battles because people would be beating me on songs just because I hadn't played them in several months. I've tried on multiple occasions to go back through every old style and play every chart for every old song, but it's just not possible, it takes far too long -- at least given how relatively little time I have to play.

Thanks for implying that I don't take my scores seriously, but I don't exactly have 4 hours a day to consistently update all of my old scores to keep them at a level that is representative of my current skill. It means that I have a life (or would -- gasp -- rather spend my time playing difficult songs that I can't clear in order to improve, rather than whoring out a bunch of 2* L7s on 3rd style to raise my phat AAA count), not that I don't take the game seriously.
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blah
post May 21 2006, 08:19 PM
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The find rival data function is SEXY. Good job guys.


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QUOTE(darkmage @ Feb 26 2006, 12:55 AM) [snapback]53078[/snapback]

lets all enjoy pressing buttons, regardless of whether or not we may be good at it. and lets press buttons to maytag repairman and other such classic tunes.
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Catastrophe
post May 21 2006, 11:02 PM
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Yeah, I knew my post was going to piss at least one person off. If you're marking scores private just to avoid losing at DJ battles then you're only proving my point. That's like sticking your head in the ground. "I didn't lose, that score is old!" Yeah, you're definitely taking the competition aspect seriously. :sarc: And it's okay not to be competitive here, but you can't complain about the DJP system if you're not going to be. (I know you're an admin. I'm putting the player hat on you for now.)

Yes, I know how many notecharts there are. That's why it means something to overtake someone on the DJP ranking page. I remember when Audity had 12,000 and I wanted 10,000. Now I've got 13,000 and ALLENUK and PIMP (congrats!) have broken 20,000. If you've got 10,000 DJPs, you're not whoring L7. A full combo AAA is only worth 10 points. Scoring as many points as I have requires that you you play everything, not whore anything. Hey! I just realized something. When I play a song that isn't at least a 7*, I look for the FC+AAA and move on. I don't (usually) sit around and whore a single chart to be #3 on a song with < 500 notes. I don't have L7 sessions to boost my AAA count, either. I want 8-10 DJPs from songs that I don't have 8-10 DJPs from yet. This means clearing and hard clearing songs that I haven't cleared yet, and ignoring normal7. I've picked up 100 DJPs recently from 9* songs. In other words, I've turned old As into HC+AAs for 50ish nines. Once you hit about the 10,000 mark for singles play (without RED) each remaining point becomes a struggle.

And like I said, I don't whore anything, I improve everything. If I can get 65 more points on singles play I can overtake Rhys! Now what I can do? The only songs I have left to hard clear (on games that have hard mode) are songs that are even harder than the songs I've previously hard cleared... and so on. The status graphic doesn't show clears and hard clears. But even if it did, nothing summarizes your game like your DJPs. I've got a truckload of clears, a truckload of hard clears, two truckloads of As, a truckload of FCs, and a few barrels of doubles play that I've collected one song at a time. I can express these last two years of watching the famous " -> " appear as the number 13023. Look at Monster-In-A-Box just a few ranks below me in singles play. Do you see my point? DJPs reward players who constantly make the " -> " appear. Look at my Spica L7 score. It's older than freeze arrows and it's in the 60th percentile. However, it is a PC AAA! Why should I ever play it again? Now, should I whore this easy song to get out of the 60th percentile, or should I say that a AAA is a AAA and move on to playing the hyper? The latter fo' shizzle!

You've also complained about people whoring L7 to boost their AAA counter. DJPs solve that problem! I'm a perfect example of a good player who doesn't whore L7 to inflate my status graphic. You shouldn't want to get rid of this! If you do anything, subtract my DP points away so that my status graphic says 10565 points instead, which is my real score that most people care about.


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jammitch!
post May 21 2006, 11:37 PM
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QUOTE(Catastrophe @ May 22 2006, 12:02 AM) *
Look at my Spica L7 score. It's older than freeze arrows and it's in the 60th percentile. However, it is a PC AAA! Why should I ever play it again? Now, should I whore this easy song to get out of the 60th percentile, or should I say that a AAA is a AAA and move on to playing the hyper? The latter fo' shizzle!

I'd go through one or two more times and pick up the extra 30ish ex points. Plus, I try to keep scores from getting a year old, even if that means picking up one more great on 5.1.1. However, I don't do that often, nor do I have the patience to play most songs 30 times in a row.

I know almost all my L7 scores are bolds yet most of my 12s are 60ish percentile. This is tainted by the fact that L7 players don't enter scores for 12s, but equally tainted by the fact that good players won't enter high scores for L7 songs. If everyone managed to enter everything I'd have a much better indication of exactly where I lie; as it stands I assume I'm about 85th percentile with a slightly disproportionate skill at timing easy stuff.


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rmz
post May 22 2006, 12:17 AM
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Okay, those "select style" and "select difficulty" dropdowns are SEXY.

That is all.

QUOTE(Catastrophe @ May 21 2006, 09:02 PM) *
If you're marking scores private just to avoid losing at DJ battles then you're only proving my point. That's like sticking your head in the ground. "I didn't lose, that score is old!" Yeah, you're definitely taking the competition aspect seriously. :sarc:

No, it's more the fact that I would get random assholes IM'ing me with a DJ battle link saying "OMGZORZ I'M BEATING YOU ON 3RD STYLE L7 DJ BATTLE LOPLOLZOLZOLZOLZ"

I don't care at all about DJ Battles, I don't run them at all. I have the most fun improving my own scores. I didn't like going back and updating all of my L7 scores just so people don't IM me and brag that they were beating my old scores. I choose to privatize them, spend my limited playing time playing songs that I actually enjoy, and not have to deal with random people I don't know IM'ing me DJ battle links and bragging. I don't privatize my scores to help me win DJ battles because I don't run DJ battles in the first place.

You seem to be greatly overestimating how much I care about competition, or how much I care about DJP rankings or DJ battles. Your "sarcasm" about how little I take the competition aspect seriously shouldn't be sarcastic -- I don't take it seriously. I don't particularly care if I'm beating Random Internet Person X. I've downloaded a few peoples' rival data, but for the most part I find myself not really using them because in most cases I have found I prefer to have the ghost option set to My Best, so I can see how I'm improving over my previous tries.

Have you noticed that I don't put my VJA sig graphic in my signature on other sites? Yeah. I used to have all of my scores privatized so I could avoid this drama bullshit, but I have no problem with posting scores that I am semi-proud of and are recent, because a few people have come to me personally and asked if I would post at least some scores so that they would see how they match up. If it weren't for that, they'd still all be private.
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blah
post May 22 2006, 12:43 AM
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QUOTE(rmz @ May 22 2006, 12:17 AM) *
Okay, those "select style" and "select difficulty" dropdowns are SEXY.

That is all.


Beat me too it. Fuck yes they are.


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QUOTE(darkmage @ Feb 26 2006, 12:55 AM) [snapback]53078[/snapback]

lets all enjoy pressing buttons, regardless of whether or not we may be good at it. and lets press buttons to maytag repairman and other such classic tunes.
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sanchny
post May 22 2006, 12:47 AM
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QUOTE(rmz @ May 22 2006, 01:17 AM) *
Okay, those "select style" and "select difficulty" dropdowns are SEXY.

Hell. Yes. Thanks rura!

Regarding the DJPoints: People have different playstyles in terms of what they find fun to play. And also, people have different setups in terms of updating VJA data. Some people have their computer right next to their PS2 and can update right away each time they get a new score, and for some people the two are far and updating VJA scores becomes a chore.

Leave DJPoints in. They provide a good quick glance of how many scores someone has put in, which gives a good basis for what the AAA/AA/A numbers mean.

We've been talking about removing DJPoints, but in favor of what? Not everyone plays Dan rankings, and that's only a shaky indicator of passing ability, which doesn't really mean much. Not everyone plays doubles, so doubles Dan rankings shouldn't be on a sig. Someone's location is fairly useless information. Or rather, something like DJPoints are way more useful to me than where DJ NAME lives. Same thing with VJA ID#.
The mockup you posted looks pretty, but is a bit of an eyesore and stands out when a sig shouldn't. I like the current VJA sigs over that not just because of the info they display, but also because they're aesthetically simple and pleasing to the eye.
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jammitch!
post May 22 2006, 12:47 AM
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Eh, I actually liked the old way better. The colors kinda clash with each other now, and the way the item you want is missing from the list below throws off my sense of order (coming from a UI perspective). Unfortunately, I don't have any suggestions for improvement, and it's going to be very helpful down the road.


--------------------
Ode to RAM
ALL RIGHT, ACT HIGH and LOW
SWITCH to the LAB and FEEL IT SNOW



QUOTE
He had found a Slake-o-Matic machine which had provided him with a compact disc filled with a sound that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike music.
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rura
post May 22 2006, 12:54 AM
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QUOTE(jammitch! @ May 22 2006, 12:47 AM) *
Eh, I actually liked the old way better. The colors kinda clash with each other now, and the way the item you want is missing from the list below throws off my sense of order (coming from a UI perspective). Unfortunately, I don't have any suggestions for improvement, and it's going to be very helpful down the road.


Yes, the primary issue is that the banners were taking up too much space and something had to be done prior to any more releases. The headers are quite fluid at the moment (I'd like to use position:fixed and play with positioning a bit, but IE6 would hate me if I did).

And the colors are subject to change as well. I agree that the difficulty dropdown kinda clashes with the style banners (although it's less ugly than that bluish highlight color that was in use previously!).

Edit: What about using a grayscale version of the banner as a placeholder in the menu if it's the active style?
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ParaParaKing
post May 22 2006, 01:14 AM
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The style/difficulty selector looks sexy, but the Original Course 7K/14K selection is broken know.
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rura
post May 22 2006, 01:33 AM
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Fixed. It is my lot in life to make foolish mistakes.
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ParaParaKing
post May 22 2006, 01:45 AM
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Just noticed, that there is no link to return to Song Select anymore too. You can always press BACK on your browser though. Before the change it worked by pressing on the style, you were on.
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rura
post May 22 2006, 02:09 AM
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Ok, I changed the behavior so you can click the current style to go back like you used to be able to.

I also fixed a long-standing bug regarding original courses in coursesession...
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dudabo
post May 22 2006, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE(sanchny @ May 22 2006, 01:47 AM) *
Regarding the DJPoints: People have different playstyles in terms of what they find fun to play. And also, people have different setups in terms of updating VJA data. Some people have their computer right next to their PS2 and can update right away each time they get a new score, and for some people the two are far and updating VJA scores becomes a chore.

Sounds like a really good argument about why to leave DJP out of the equation! I still dont have all scores from 3rd-8th in yet on 7k or another because they are either songs I dont care about or songs overlooked, it's not an issue of not wanting to put crappy scores in.

QUOTE(sanchny @ May 22 2006, 01:47 AM) *
We've been talking about removing DJPoints, but in favor of what? Not everyone plays Dan rankings, and that's only a shaky indicator of passing ability, which doesn't really mean much.


Yeah but it is definitely the most accurate measure of how good someone is that iidx has right now. DJP just confuses people - a 6dan player with 10k+ DJP because of L7 looks a hell of alot better on the sig pic than someone like RMZ, who is better. Associating a dan level with AAA/AA/A counts gives them more/less meaning, which it should.

Your DJP is in some ways independent of your skill level - much better players can have a much lower DJP than those who are worse. I'm most certainly not interested in played RED on L7, but it feels like I need to go through it all just so that my DJP can measure up. What kind of an indication of skill is that? This just begs the question why then DJP should be on sig graphic at all.

A less confusing substitute that serves the same purpose: a count of how many scores you have entered (this sounds kinda dumb / useless to me, too).


aaaaaaand the new banner drop downs are really wierd lol. They look nice, though.

This post has been edited by dudabo: May 22 2006, 05:10 PM
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blackstar
post May 22 2006, 08:27 PM
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I dunno, but seeing as the status graphic only shows A, AA, and AAA's, DJP covers the rest of the songs you've played. Without it, you would either see someone with nothing on their banner or you would see someone with lots of things on their banner.

QUOTE(dudabo @ May 22 2006, 03:09 PM) *
DJP just confuses people - a 6dan player with 10k+ DJP because of L7 looks a hell of alot better on the sig pic than someone like RMZ, who is better. Associating a dan level with AAA/AA/A counts gives them more/less meaning, which it should.

Isn't it his choice to privatize those entries even if they exist, meaning that he is willing to give up those points on his graphic?


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rmz
post May 22 2006, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE
Isn't it his choice to privatize those entries even if they exist, meaning that he is willing to give up those points on his graphic?

Please stop using me as an example, guys. This "willing to give up those points on his graphic" thing doesn't even really apply to me because I don't care about how many DJ Points I have.

For other people that do actually care what their sig graphic says, though, I'm sure it might be an issue.
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WILD RIDE
post May 22 2006, 10:03 PM
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Hey, why am I getting singled out...


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dudabo
post May 23 2006, 12:03 AM
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The choice to privatize scores is different from the choice to play everything on L7 on 3rd style so my DJP looks better.

I was trying to say that for anybody that chooses to use their sig graphic on other sites, having the DJP being displayed is a poor gague of skill even combined with AAA/AA/A count. The only true display is when both the DJP and AAA/AA/A count are both high (even then, no one knows if the counts are from L7, 7k, A...). Also, saying that your DJP is high is relative.

If either the AAA/AA/A counts or the DJP are not high, then no one can reach any conclusions about skill looking at the sig pic. Even if my AAA counts are high and my DJP is low then one could infer that I'm just putting in select scores, etc. There exists a similar example for any other combination.

Becuase the AAA/AA/A counts exist, the only thing that DJP shows is how many scores you have put in. While its true that DJP gets inflated the higher you score, showing AAA/AA/A counts already captures this information. I always thought this and am excited to hear that the sig graphic may be changed in the future.

If your using the graphic outside of this site, its becuase you want to show that you take iidx so seriously that you are part of the VJ Army and you want to show off your accomplishments in the game. By eliminating DJP and adding a dan rank and the # of scores entered, you're eliminating confusion without loss of information while adding a more reasonable gague of skill. That's what I think, anyway. It's not my call...just trying to give some input!

DJP most certainly has its place, but wouldn't it make more sense for it to be on a per style / per difficulty basis? (i.e. something internal to VJ Army)
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cknowles32
post May 23 2006, 02:19 AM
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I like to play IIDX. Everyone will have a different way to keep themselves interested in IIDX, whether or not DJP appears on a new sig graph is something that I feel is irrelevant. Essentially, it might be nice for a lot of players as a gauge of how many FC's PC's and other scores entered.

However, I don't think it would change the way I like to see my own personal improvement over the period of about 2 years since I started playing. Dan Course Rating on the Sig would be nice since its sort of IIDX's "official" way to rate a players skill (however inaccurate it may be), but basically entering scores in this complete database where I can see my own scores improve will always be my main interest on this site. In addition to all the fun filled competition between players and their scores.

This post has been edited by cknowles32: May 23 2006, 02:28 AM


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