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> Perpetual 8th Style CS Thread, aka, THE RISLIM REMIX FAN CLUB
Oogami
post Jul 8 2004, 08:22 PM
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Konami better not forget that Give Me a Sign got an [a] in 8th because I want to play that fucker on HS4 so bad! >:-O

Anyways, old songs that got [a]s in 9th were minimalian, genom screams (awesome another), and Checking You Out, so if 9th gets put on the PS2 than you can at least expect those to be repeat songs. If 9th and above will be put on the PS2, you can expect to see REALLY chopped up songlists. No way they can fit 240+ songs in one PS2 game and still keep the videos :-\

I predict that if there are only going to be two preview songs in 8th just like there were in 7th, then those songs just might be moon_child and 雪月花, as they're both very popular songs from 9th and 10th and would keep the tradition of one DJ.W and one Ryu* song alive ;-p.

And I'm with rmz. Bring back the old font for 8th. Save the new font for 9th.


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Isaru
post Jul 8 2004, 09:02 PM
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Personally I wish they would dumb down beginners mode and make it even easier for once, at least add more 1's. Maybe even have 2 difficulties for beginner that you switch with select like free mode, one of them is mostly 1's and the other has the normal beginner mode difficulty or something... I have so many friends that come over and see the game for the first time in their lives, they like the idea and think the games pretty cool... until they play. They pass 5.1.1. then they maybe pass a few other 1's, then theres nothing else in the game they can beat. Then I either get "This games stupid" or "I like the game but it's too hard for me" then they never play again. I wish they had more patience.

Obviously there's a reason beginners mode is hard at first and that it gets you used to higher difficulties, if it's too easy at first then it would be really hard to move on later. I like the idea of 2 beginner difficulties because of this, but I definately wouldn't want something like that to delay the game... I know this probably sounds pretty dumb to alot of people though sad.gif .

I hope this game ends up having another new songs collection too, even if it's only a few songs... As long as it turned out good, nothing would make me happier than playing a remix of the silent hill(the game not the ddr song rolleyes.gif ) intro song on IIDX. That and mirror force biggrin.gif ! But seriously I hope it has a few brand new songs.
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Oogami
post Jul 8 2004, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE (Isaru @ Jul 8 2004, 09:02 PM)
Personally I wish they would dumb down beginners mode and make it even easier for once, at least add more 1's. Maybe even have 2 difficulties for beginner that you switch with select like free mode, one of them is mostly 1's and the other has the normal beginner mode difficulty or something... I have so many friends that come over and see the game for the first time in their lives, they like the idea and think the games pretty cool... until they play. They pass 5.1.1. then they maybe pass a few other 1's, then theres nothing else in the game they can beat. Then I either get "This games stupid" or "I like the game but it's too hard for me" then they never play again. I wish they had more patience.

Obviously there's a reason beginners mode is hard at first and that it gets you used to higher difficulties, if it's too easy at first then it would be really hard to move on later. I like the idea of 2 beginner difficulties because of this, but I definately wouldn't want something like that to delay the game... I know this probably sounds pretty dumb to alot of people though sad.gif .

I hope this game ends up having another new songs collection too, even if it's only a few songs... As long as it turned out good, nothing would make me happier than playing a remix of the silent hill(the game not the ddr song rolleyes.gif ) intro song on IIDX. That and mirror force  biggrin.gif ! But seriously I hope it has a few brand new songs.

They don't really need two beginner's difficulties, they just need to dumb down beginner's mode completely. Let BM be for the initiates who just need time to adjust to recognizing which columns correspond with which notes, after which L7 will help them get used to common and a few uncommon key patterns. 7K then will be their main course as it will help the players get used to progressively tougher key patterns and simultaneous key/LP management, and then another will be for the experts who want something that will really give them a hurdle to overcome (95% of anothers) or for people who just want to play a different version of the song (the other 5%), some of which are EASIER than their 7K counterparts.

As it stands, BM is still too difficult for the average music-game ignorant player. Even simply two to four quarter note key presses a measure would be sufficient. Any more advanced and that's what L7 is for.


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chotto kiitena
post Jul 9 2004, 01:49 AM
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Yeah, I'm all for making beginner mode mostly 1s with probably a few 2s thrown in.


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Kilroy
post Jul 9 2004, 10:41 AM
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If they made beginner's mode the same as they did in DDR, I think that would be more or less fine for most people. Beginner's mode to me is just a way of getting familiar with the keys after all right?


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Shapermc
post Jul 9 2004, 11:57 AM
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QUOTE (Kilroy @ Jul 9 2004, 10:41 AM)
If they made beginner's mode the same as they did in DDR, I think that would be more or less fine for most people. Beginner's mode to me is just a way of getting familiar with the keys after all right?

Can you explain for those unfamiliar with DDR's beginner mode? (mainly myself)

Anyways, yea beginner mode is a little difficult as my wife can pass level 18 Pop'n songs on an ASC but can only pass 1 two star song in beginner mode for IIDX.
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Kilroy
post Jul 9 2004, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE (Shapermc @ Jul 9 2004, 11:57 AM)
Can you explain for those unfamiliar with DDR's beginner mode? (mainly myself)

Basically *all* the songs on DDR's beginner's mode are 1 foot (easiest setting) songs, contain only 1/4 note arrows and no diagonal jumps.

So I guess what I was thinking was just all 1 star ranking, all 1/4 note notes, and only double presses that are on the same colored keys. (i.e. no 1+2, 3+6, etc.)

If it were set up that way, then by the time people got out of begginer's mode, they would at least be familiar with the layout of the keys, and could figure out the more complex patterns in L7.

I haven't really played DDR's beginner's mode much, so if I am wrong someone please correct me. But that is how it seemed to be when I played it the few times that I have.


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Uiru
post Jul 9 2004, 01:45 PM
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Beginner mode in DDR:
-No diagonal jumps, just up+down and left+right
-No freezes
-Quarter beats ONLY (ie. turning Little on does nothing)
-All songs rated from 1 to 3 steps by BPM; most songs 1, some 2 and boss songs/very fast Other Bemani 3
-Should not be played by anyone ;)

Seriously, the right Light songs are more than enough for someone to get started on (Ordinary World comes to mind). Beginner in DDR should be played only until you grasp the concept of arrow meets stepzone and should only be attempted after giving Light a go. I played Beginner Mode in 6th Style extensively and found it to have a decent range of challenge; roughly a third each of 1, 2, and 3 star songs. I left Beginner Mode to my girlfriend in 7th, but I'm pretty sure she'd rather play Pop'n now regardless, so I dunno what they did with it. I just know Max 300 wasn't there. >:o

Perhaps changing the ratio towards more 1s would help, but there shouldn't be a need for a new difficulty level.
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Taren
post Jul 9 2004, 03:22 PM
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Also in Beginner on DDR, Shuffle is disabled. I've always felt that Beginner on DDR was unnecessary, just suck it up and play some 2-3 footers! Seriously, the first time I played I could handle up to 3 feet on DDR 3rd Japanese version. But now that the average difficulty of songs is getting harder in DDR (as well as IIDX!) that may not be an option... http://www.aquilno.net/t6/etc/bm2dx.htm there's all you need to know. Scroll to the bottom, then back up. Jesus.

Here's how I learned beatmania:
BM98 (for several months)
IIDX 3rd + 4th
IIDX 6th

Suggested Method of learning:
BM 6th Mix CS (it has many High Speed functions and easy as hell songs)
IIDX 3rd (easiest songs)
IIDX 6th

Beginners should start with 5 keys, and immediately after they get the hang of it, learn how to read 7 keys. Songs on 5Key mixes are ridiculously easy (Logical dash, a 7-star on 5th Mix, would equate to about a 5 or easy 6 on IIDX) and songs on 7Key Styles are ridiculously hard.


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sanchny
post Jul 9 2004, 10:27 PM
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I don't feel that the comparison of beginners' modes in IIDX and DDR is fair. I think the DDR beginner mode is way too easy to the point that it hurts people starting out, while I think the IIDX beginner mode is a bit too hard. The DDR one has the arrows really spread apart, and won't help much in teaching newbies how to keep the beat because of it. Light is perfectly fine as the lowest difficulty.

I agree with Kilroy that the IIDX beginner mode should be:
QUOTE (Kilroy @ Jul 9 2004, 12:30 PM)
So I guess what I was thinking was just all 1 star ranking, all 1/4 note notes, and only double presses that are on the same colored keys. (i.e. no 1+2, 3+6, etc.)

If it were set up that way, then by the time people got out of begginer's mode, they would at least be familiar with the layout of the keys, and could figure out the more complex patterns in L7.

It's even more important to learn proper timing in IIDX, for a number of reasons:
- IIDX makes it less obvious as to what the beat is. The line flashes, but that's it. DDR has color coded arrows and flashing stationary arrows.
- DDR can be a lot of fun even while failing. The music is not affected by performance. IIDX is the opposite.
- The progression between difficulties is a lot smoother in DDR than in IIDX. The jumps going from beginner -> L7 - 7k -> [A] are huge.
- There's a lot more that you have to learn in IIDX than in DDR.
DDR things to learn:
= keeping the beat
= learning where the arrows are without looking at them.
= reading arrows, interpreting arrow reading (knowing which foot to place where, and positioning your body)
= stamina
There are equivalents in IIDX for these:
= keeping the beat
= learning where the keys are without looking at them. This is so much harder in IIDX, not just because there are more columns.
= reading notes, interpreting note reading (knowing which key to hit)
= stamina = fast finger movement
yet it's a hell of a lot more stuff to process when it comes to IIDX because of 8 columns vs 4 (and 2 elements at once, i.e. keys + turntable).

Beginner mode should focus on teaching the beat, along with some very simple stuff from things to learn 2 & 3. What Kilroy said.
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Thunderbird
post Jul 10 2004, 03:18 AM
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QUOTE
-Quarter beats ONLY (ie. turning Little on does nothing)


I've spotted 8th notes in Bag Beginner, so that's not entirely correct.
Also note that DDR, like IIDX, doesn't have Beginner for Double.

Some DDR songs are just perfect for beginners on Light though, such as Remember You (I've heard the difference between Light and Beginner for that is 2 steps).

IIDX Beginner can be fun to play sometimes, and I'd certainly recommend playing it for any new IIDX player, since the latest styles are so damn top heavy these days.
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Remy
post Jul 10 2004, 12:13 PM
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I disagree with the assertion that people should use 5-key when starting out on IIDX. When 5-key is just 7-key with two key autoplay, newbies are still going to get murdered on some patterns. L7 is a much better start - easier patterns, and you don't get the whole "oh my god there's this other element of gameplay I wasn't using before" effect that comes from 5-key (and autoscratch).

Also, I just want to get this out of the way - if we have a repeat of that stupid fucking piracy discussion going on over at Bemanistyle, I'm going to start docking people referral days.


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rmz
post Jul 10 2004, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE (Remy @ Jul 10 2004, 10:13 AM)
Also, I just want to get this out of the way - if we have a repeat of that stupid fucking piracy discussion going on over at Bemanistyle, I'm going to start docking people referral days.

Amen.
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DJ Sammy
post Jul 10 2004, 03:30 PM
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I'm just happy that Konami understand that the Beatmania IIDX series still has a demand on Console versions.

I also hope that Konami can make 8th style break the 100 song barrier like they did with DDR EXtreme CS... and have another Master's mode to boot.
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rmz
post Jul 10 2004, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (DJ Sammy @ Jul 10 2004, 01:30 PM)
I also hope that [there will be] another Master's mode to boot.

OH DEAR GOD NO NO NO NO NO GOD NO
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dj HaQ
post Jul 10 2004, 07:41 PM
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You can say that again, rmz.

http://www.lcubed.host.sk/iidxy/

=P


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GT_Onizuka
post Jul 10 2004, 09:23 PM
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And I'd like to add, with all of this talk about 8th Style, we STILL don't have a fucking unlock code for 7th. I want to play Abyss ~THR~ people, on something other than L7 :\.

And I thought Master's Mode was kinda cool, besides the fact that it was the only way to unlock Abyss ~THR~. If they threw it in just as another mode (like Survival and whatnot) and just attached some Gallery Unlocks to it, I'd be happy with that. I personally, thought it was cool.


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Uiru
post Jul 10 2004, 10:39 PM
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-There are no eighth beats in bag on Beginner. I checked.
-Master's Mode was interesting, but somewhat broken. My little brother has a 40 000 combo going in it. :p If you know when to quit, you can't lose. You might have trouble winning, but you can't lose. I wouldn't mind if it came back.
~Uiru
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Oogami
post Jul 11 2004, 05:39 AM
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QUOTE (Taren @ Jul 9 2004, 03:22 PM)
Suggested Method of learning:
BM 6th Mix CS (it has many High Speed functions and easy as hell songs)
IIDX 3rd (easiest songs)
IIDX 6th

Beginners should start with 5 keys, and immediately after they get the hang of it, learn how to read 7 keys. Songs on 5Key mixes are ridiculously easy (Logical dash, a 7-star on 5th Mix, would equate to about a 5 or easy 6 on IIDX) and songs on 7Key Styles are ridiculously hard.

One thing - 5th Style is SOOOO much better of a choice than 6th for a game for beginners to get used to. 6th is easily the most difficult style to get into of the five on PS2 (I personally think it even beats out 4th even with Beginner's mode), whereas 5th has not only beginner's mode, but a whole slew of easy songs to muck around in. When I brought IIDX up with me to a party in NY over the holiday season, I brought both 5th and 6th Styles, and while people were easily getting frustrated with 6th Style (even on beginners mode), they found they could pass a number of songs in 5th on beginners and had more fun with that. Though 3rd Style is still the best overall game to start out on.

Another thing - I take exception to your assertion that Beatmania I is "ridiculously easy". While yes, there are only five keys, and yes, there's nothing on there that even comes close to some of the most difficult anothers on IIDX, there are still plently of songs with awkward repeated note patterns and the like going on, making it difficult for someone who's more used to IIDX's more spread-out keycharts (such as myself) to score well on them. Drunk Monky [a] is a great example of a really awkward 5-key song.


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Isaru
post Jul 11 2004, 05:40 AM
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If they do bring masters mode back, they better make it so you have to hold the start button a few seconds to end the song instead of just pushing it. I got used to it after a while, but at first I got real sick of accidently pressing it slightly and quitting when I was doing good.

QUOTE
One thing - 5th Style is SOOOO much better of a choice than 6th for a game for beginners to get used to. 6th is easily the most difficult style to get into of the five on PS2 (I personally think it even beats out 4th even with Beginner's mode), whereas 5th has not only beginner's mode, but a whole slew of easy songs to muck around in.


One thing I noticed was how dxy is a 3* on 5th beginner mode and a 1* on 6th beginner mode... I know there were a few other songs that did that too. I could be wrong, but I don't think they changed the note chart at all.
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