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> Possible standardized rulesets for music games, Feedback needed
over there
post Mar 25 2009, 01:52 PM
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I'm planning on eventually hosting a huge music-game tournament (no dancing games though since I don't have a decent arcade with multiple machines and good space near me) and I noticed there's never been a standardization of tournament rules for any music games. Before I do this I plan to make standardized rulesets similar enough for each game (obviously more odd games like Guitar Hero or Um Jammer Lammy/Parappa series would be very different) but also flexible enough to allow region differences. I would like at first some topics the players think need to be fixed or addressed in these rulesets, and any games are fine.

Please only include an opinion if you SUPPORT it with theory or evidence.

Examples:

Total EX score vs per-song wins over total wins--Is there any benefit to Total EX? It creates an uneven playing field; Jimbo would do terrible in a Total EX-based tournament, but has a great chance in a per-song tournament. I feel per-song wins balance the tournament and Total EX tournaments should be done away with completely.

Pop'n music random and s-random, and by extension AC IIDX random and s-random rules--Should these be allowed per player or should one player get the choice of what they want to pick? The randoms and s-randoms will not be even if the players are playing on the same side at different times. I believe that for CS IIDX, players should ALWAYS play battle mode no matter what because it gives the same random (and I think s-random), so the playing field is even. What about AC IIDX? What about pop'n? Should these be allowed and if so how do we standardize them to give no players a distinct advantage?

Should combo-based games be based on other scoring methods--Specifically for GF/DM/GH here, how should a win be determined? Pad misses DO happen in DM and I think the scoring system should be tossed since at the highest levels players generally FC everything, so a single pad miss basically ruins a player's chances. GF has a check against that, where the toughest songs are so difficult they are only comboed a few times at most, and consistency in comboing is very difficult with the high level of the charts. GF also has very few instances, if any, of misses not from the player. Should these games be done like IIDXs EX score system? What about DDR EXTREME's DP system? As for GH, how do we begin to calculate wins? Almost all songs can be full comboed by anyone at high levels, and scoring past Guitar Hero 80's is broken in that holds function as analog holds. These holds don't have a maximum value anymore, and hitting them as early as possible, letting go as late as possible gives the most points. This takes the focus on timing in a music game away from it; should GH III and on be banned? Should we do them as total notes hit? If total notes hit is the standard in the case of a tie do we go to score, average multiplier, number of star powers used, or what?

How should player picks in dancing games be valued if the player fails them--This is highly regional and I've seen such things as "keep playing and take the fantastic count," you lose the match, you lose the round, and highest percentage wins regardless of pass/fail. The problem with percentages and playing it out is that dancing games do not give you a score if you both fail (as well as GF/DM, where this is a possible problem). Since a score cannot always be guaranteed, should the player be given a single loss or a full match loss (2 losses)? Is there some way that a winner should be determined otherwise, even though the game is designed against it? How would this be fixed with machines easily and how would we be able to standardize it across the nation? Should this remain a region difference but made with a smaller choice (such as aforementioned loss counts)?

Should pop'n music tournaments be done with cools if possible--I believe if you can 100k a song, you're going to 100k it almost every time you play it subsequently since the chart and timing is always the same and few people use random or s-random in pop'n. This could cause many ties and tiebreakers could prove meaningless until someone gets to a song they haven't 100k'd. Pop'n's timing is the easiest of any bemani game without cools, and konami has standardized cools in ALL forms of competition (online rankings for expert mode, taisen, and the topranker tournaments) for over half of the series' life. Why are we still using greats in tournaments when some US players have advanced to the point that only songs over 36 or so are viable to have score-based battles on without tieing often? What is the argument for TOURNAMENT PLAY for use of greats?



These are some useful examples of arguments present now, and I have plenty more. Discussion on these matters is imperative, and I want to get player input on other problems in tournaments as well. I've talked to Schala quite a bit about this, and I need the opinions of people who have been to tournaments and who have strong views on sides of these and other arguments in the community. I want the community to be accepting of a standardized ruleset for a music game, and I want to revitalize the tournament scene for non-dancing games to what it once was so that we can be a closer-knit community and become better players faster.

Thanks for your time smile.gif
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post Mar 25 2009, 01:53 PM
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money score


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Jadin
post Mar 25 2009, 02:38 PM
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total EX da BESS
I can't think of a reason why someone who lost a total EX tournament would be the best player that day.


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Schlagwerk
post Mar 25 2009, 02:40 PM
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My thought has always been that if a game has timing windows (beyond just hit or miss) that some form of EX scoring is a good judgement on skill

Also I kinda view music game tournament matches like fighting game matches. In fighting games you don't pick who won by how much life they had left over all rounds, you look at who won the individual rounds. Likewise I think it makes more sense to decide matches in a music game tournament by number of songs won versus overall score/EX. The only exception is for say a qualifier round where everyone will be playing the same thing

For Random/S-Random I leave it to the decision of the players in each individual match, by song. They have to agree before either or both can use Random. This puts the choice in their hands; It is up to the experience of the players to decide if they think Random would give an unfair advantage for particular songs or if it is worth the risk of getting a bad random in order to score better with a good random

Naively I've always run Guitar Hero tourneys based on score alone and never received complaints at Otakon tourneys (at least on the score system ;P). I hate combo based scoring especially with controllers that may fuck up randomly, but in games where you do not have timing windows I think it's fair to judge people based on how well they do in that games' scoring system. In Guitar Hero it's all about how well they do keep a combo going, how they creatively use their star power to boost their score, etc

Lastly, I'm a fan of keeping tournaments simple if I can help it but I've never held very highly technical tourneys. It makes it easier to run, easier for people to understand, and everything just runs faster. For a while I was considering scoring Guitar Hero tourneys as score * percentage of notes hit, but dropped the idea since it wouldn't be a calculation I could easily do in my head



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Mazrim
post Mar 25 2009, 03:58 PM
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All the IIDX tournaments I've run (about 7 or 8 now) have been run by adding EX scores for the round. Everyone who entered had no problems with it, but the key note to this is that we never did head-to-head battle mode matches, simply because everyone plays at home on Original screen mode, which means switching to a 2-player mode that everyone would not feel comfortable with (arcade with 2 lanes?). That and all but one person plays on left side, which means song by song wins is more time consuming than just adding EX scores by the end of a round to determine ranking and cuts.

I would love to do a head-to-head setup on home versions but the logistics suck, so I've never bothered. Adding scores at the end of the round rewards consistency over single song effort, while single song victories reward players who are good at specific things. Is the only reason you want to get rid of total EX because you happen to be better at the latter situation, or because it's not done with DDR/ITG (often)?
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rmz
post Mar 25 2009, 04:16 PM
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I would love to see a IIDX money score tournament where the guy wins solely because he ninja'ed out a border bonus at the end.
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djplaeskool
post Mar 25 2009, 05:15 PM
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Money scores can be tricksy and false.
EX is the way to go.

I'm sure it's happened to everyone... but I can't tell you how many times I'd get a particular money score, assure myself mentally of the grade, and then get disappointed 5 seconds later...


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Buffalo
post Mar 25 2009, 05:47 PM
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Total EX score may very well be the best way to determine who deserves to win but it alienates people.

A per song tournament encourages more people to participate than a total EX score because it gives most players a chance at winning. It works for dancing games, why not try it with IIDX? If dancing game tournaments determined winners based off who has the best DP at the end of a round, matches will be alot less exciting (less tie breakers), less people will participate, and results are more "absolute" (no expecting some crazy upset victory etc).

For Pop'n, I don't see any reason why Chou Challenge should not be the standard. The problem with DDR is there's so many tie breakers because the community has advanced so far that most songs are AAA'd on command. Matches can go on and on as random song after random song are AAA'd. Picking chou challenge mode as the standard would speed up how the tournament is ran instead of go into overtime like most major ddr tournaments nowadays.


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over there
post Mar 25 2009, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (Schlagwerk @ Mar 25 2009, 03:40 PM) *
My thought has always been that if a game has timing windows (beyond just hit or miss) that some form of EX scoring is a good judgement on skill

Also I kinda view music game tournament matches like fighting game matches. In fighting games you don't pick who won by how much life they had left over all rounds, you look at who won the individual rounds. Likewise I think it makes more sense to decide matches in a music game tournament by number of songs won versus overall score/EX. The only exception is for say a qualifier round where everyone will be playing the same thing

For Random/S-Random I leave it to the decision of the players in each individual match, by song. They have to agree before either or both can use Random. This puts the choice in their hands; It is up to the experience of the players to decide if they think Random would give an unfair advantage for particular songs or if it is worth the risk of getting a bad random in order to score better with a good random

Naively I've always run Guitar Hero tourneys based on score alone and never received complaints at Otakon tourneys (at least on the score system ;P). I hate combo based scoring especially with controllers that may fuck up randomly, but in games where you do not have timing windows I think it's fair to judge people based on how well they do in that games' scoring system. In Guitar Hero it's all about how well they do keep a combo going, how they creatively use their star power to boost their score, etc

Lastly, I'm a fan of keeping tournaments simple if I can help it but I've never held very highly technical tourneys. It makes it easier to run, easier for people to understand, and everything just runs faster. For a while I was considering scoring Guitar Hero tourneys as score * percentage of notes hit, but dropped the idea since it wouldn't be a calculation I could easily do in my head


I was thinking of fighting games when I did the total EX, as often players can just destroy the other person one round then the other guy claws his way back to win in the next two. Playing easy songs and using skills of timing rather than pure note comprehension is a good way to do that if you know you excel at that.

I like your idea a lot for the random/s-random part where both players must allow random before one can use it, that makes it quick and easy to fix and as you said puts things in the hands of the players.

I'm not too worried about GH to be honest, but what you said about combos in the game is true. Score * percentage of notes hit runs into the same problem with good players, where you end up with ties in GH 1, 2, and 80s, and players win by small margins on the later games because they held the notes longer. I like the idea of combining score with something though. I'd like to hear if you have any thoughts on GF/DM personally since they do have timing windows but are still combo-based.

QUOTE (Mazrim @ Mar 25 2009, 04:58 PM) *
All the IIDX tournaments I've run (about 7 or 8 now) have been run by adding EX scores for the round. Everyone who entered had no problems with it, but the key note to this is that we never did head-to-head battle mode matches, simply because everyone plays at home on Original screen mode, which means switching to a 2-player mode that everyone would not feel comfortable with (arcade with 2 lanes?). That and all but one person plays on left side, which means song by song wins is more time consuming than just adding EX scores by the end of a round to determine ranking and cuts.

I would love to do a head-to-head setup on home versions but the logistics suck, so I've never bothered. Adding scores at the end of the round rewards consistency over single song effort, while single song victories reward players who are good at specific things. Is the only reason you want to get rid of total EX because you happen to be better at the latter situation, or because it's not done with DDR/ITG (often)?


Yeah almost every tournament I've been to has been switch-off (which honestly I don't mind, but we want things to be completely fair) rather than battle, for the reason that no one has a widescreen CRT. KOTC has had a widescreen though, and I think a Director should probably get one widescreen CRT if they plan to run a IIDX tournament if possible. I know people don't have experience with it, but people don't have experience playing on different setups further or closer than normal, where the tv is higher or lower, etc. That's what warm-ups are for getting used to, after all. It does speed things up if two play like you said, but I do plan to make rules for pools like the rankings and cuts based on a few selected songs as you mentioned.

As for consistency vs. single-song effort, I think these are essentially one in the same. No one is going to beat Schala or VGTA at most songs because they simply play everything. They don't have a large, glaring weakness as a player. People like Jimbo or MilkChan (I think) are on the other end, they're players who play one way and pretty much don't venture into practicing the other stuff very much (Jimbo gets great scores on easy songs and awful scores on tough ones, while MilkChan and frankly many others are the opposite). Therefore, since Schala is consistently a top scorer on ANY song, not JUST songs with over XXXX amount of notes or XX difficulty, she would most likely win no matter who her opponent was. If Jimbo faced MilkChan by rules of total EX Jimbo should literally give up as to not be embarassed, since he can't plausibly pick anything under p notes where p is the number of notes in the song milkchan picks -50 or so. In a per-song based tournament the outcome will probably come out to the random. A 99% EX over 85% EX on a 2* is JUST AS MUCH OF A BEATING as a 99% EX over 85% EX on an 11*. That brings me to think that maybe total EX percentage could be a more viable option, but it still gives players good at hard songs a slight upper hand. I want to give players an even table to play on, not put one on the side with a broken leg.

QUOTE (rmz @ Mar 25 2009, 05:16 PM) *
I would love to see a IIDX money score tournament where the guy wins solely because he ninja'ed out a border bonus at the end.


See pop'n topranker '06 Enka Remix EX round.

QUOTE (Velius @ Mar 25 2009, 06:47 PM) *
Total EX score may very well be the best way to determine who deserves to win but it alienates people.

A per song tournament encourages more people to participate than a total EX score because it gives most players a chance at winning. It works for dancing games, why not try it with IIDX? If dancing game tournaments determined winners based off who has the best DP at the end of a round, matches will be alot less exciting (less tie breakers), less people will participate, and results are more "absolute" (no expecting some crazy upset victory etc).

For Pop'n, I don't see any reason why Chou Challenge should not be the standard. The problem with DDR is there's so many tie breakers because the community has advanced so far that most songs are AAA'd on command. Matches can go on and on as random song after random song are AAA'd. Picking chou challenge mode as the standard would speed up how the tournament is ran instead of go into overtime like most major ddr tournaments nowadays.


Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get at with per-song, and you mentioned a good point that it draws players who can't play harder songs very well but do great on easier stuff (Damien getting like 14 greats on dazzlin' comes to mind).

Well I was thinking one possible argument against chou challenge and cools is that there are simply not that many people in the US who play at the level where they can 100k most songs, but that number IS increasing. Not to mention, those players are fairly far away from eachother and locals who are not used to cools may be put off if the tournament is on chou challenge. Still, I fully agree there is no reason chou challenge shouldn't be the standard in larger draw tournaments where it's possible me, arbel, and maybe some other good players would meet.

Good ideas guys, I'm glad people are genuinely interested in this. If there's more support for total EX in IIDX I'll give the option, though I'd like to hear what people think about percentage-based total score rather than EX, since it decreases large leads between someone who beasted on mei [a] and someone who beasted on Pluto normal tongue.gif
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Schlagwerk
post Mar 25 2009, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (osrg @ Mar 25 2009, 04:37 PM) *
I'd like to hear if you have any thoughts on GF/DM personally since they do have timing windows but are still combo-based.

I don't have enough experience with them to make a good decision. I know the games themselves are very combo-based in their scores and % grade, but maybe it's the IIDX/PNM player in me still saying that figuring out an EX score based on their accuracy is the better way to rate players. Who's a better player? The guy who can bs kicks but keep his combo because of how big the Good window is or the guy who gets Perfects and misses a note here or there?


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over there
post Mar 25 2009, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (Schlagwerk @ Mar 25 2009, 07:47 PM) *
Who's a better player? The guy who can bs kicks but keep his combo because of how big the Good window is or the guy who gets Perfects and misses a note here or there?


Actually I think that line is still fairly blurred in Japan haha. It's hard to continuously get goods in GF because you run into very quick streams and you'd have to switch fingers on trills at the right time and such, which makes me think more that GF is probably good where it is. DM has possible pad problems and the issues of timing vs. combo plaguing it still, and people getting better just exaggerates it, so I'm not sure what to do with that.
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Schala
post Mar 25 2009, 07:20 PM
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I like best 2 out of 3 with individual ex on a song determining a win, rather than total ex over 3 songs because then L7 songs aren't viable for anything and everyone will pick nageki every time cuz it has NORTS

5key songs should be viable even if they don't save because everyone has access to them

money scores should never count for anything

Faefly Kite (7:15:54 PM): didn't I bring up the idea of like
Faefly Kite (7:16:01 PM): combo battles, with both players agreeing to it
Faefly Kite (7:16:04 PM): that would be cool
Faefly Kite (7:16:08 PM): lowest misscount wins
otaku1313 (7:16:11 PM): hahaha
Faefly Kite (7:16:12 PM): if both FC, then go to EX
otaku1313 (7:16:15 PM): that would be interesting
Faefly Kite (7:16:27 PM): PC would count for something too
otaku1313 (7:16:28 PM): as a side tournament

this is cool too


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kevin energy
post Mar 25 2009, 11:35 PM
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1) no biting
2) no unicycle polo
3) whoever makes it the furthest in 10 steps wins


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Spiritsnare
post Mar 26 2009, 12:17 AM
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QUOTE (VgameT @ Mar 25 2009, 09:35 PM) *
2) no reverse baseball suplexes


the fuck is a reverse baseball suplex


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Spooky
post Mar 26 2009, 01:57 AM
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there should be another irc tournament
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*NYAA
post Mar 26 2009, 09:59 AM
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dm tournaments are always uneven when players do not play on the same machine


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therealbong
post Mar 26 2009, 08:14 PM
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Obviously, IIDX should be done like Melee:

DJ Foxx only, Final Countdown, no item's = randomization/speed mods.


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Brazoliange
post Mar 26 2009, 08:34 PM
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These are the rules I made for AC IIDX/AC Pop'n/some other games at MMS. I might have GF/DM rules somewhere but since we never did a tournament I might have deleted them.

http://www.yousendit.com/download/UmNLRm96Q0NUME0wTVE9PQ


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kevin energy
post Mar 26 2009, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE (Spiritsnare @ Mar 25 2009, 10:17 PM) *
the fuck is a reverse baseball suplex


you're right, I should fix that


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over there
post Mar 30 2009, 01:57 AM
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I'll be creating a preface and most likely pop'n music AC/CS singles rules soon, I have a few things I wanted to ask you guys about.

I've seen a rule against "GAMBOLing" before, where one player may not pick GAMBOL hyper on another player.

From what we knew then the timing windows were fairly random, but current plays allowed some of us to see that GAMBOL (L7 3rd, 7k), e-motion (7k, 5k, another, us another), OVERDOSER (7k, another), and Stop Violence! have missing early GREAT and early JUST GREAT windows replaced by GOODs.
GAMBOL another has no timing windows besides BAD (replacing all missing windows), 1 frame of late GREATs and the later half of the JUST GREAT window. There may be a GOOD window but it would be only 1 to 4 frames large and at the very beginning or end of those windows, which is why no one has a score with one.
LOVE SO GROOVY is the opposite of the first group of songs listed in that it only has early GREAT and early JUST GREATs, all later windows missing are replaced with GOODs.
Manmachine plays Jazz and Tribe Groove have a missing early JUST GREAT window if I recall correctly, replaced by GREATs. These songs are easy to PC.
perfect free (7k, another) has a missing early GREAT window, replaced by GOODs, but otherwise is fine.
SOFT LANDING ON THE BODY (all difficulties) is either a 16th note earlier or later than what the screen displays (I don't remember which) directly after the slowdown, but once the speedup occurs notes are placed correctly again.
Tablets another is a chart that must be hit early visually on 6th Style, while on 5th Style the notes are aligned correctly.
patsenner may also be visually incorrect, I do not remember.
I will play 20, november 5-keys GOLD at some point to learn the timing for that as well, but I do not know right now.
For the songs on 3rd, AAAing and scoring is very difficult as turntables are for some reason either a 24th, 32nd, or 48th later after a keypress (for comparison play e-motion 7k on 3rd then try on bmus)

pop'n music has no songs with a broken, halved, or visually early/late COOL window as far as I know (though I have not tested e-motion yet). Some songs have no GREAT window, only one half of the GREAT window (AKIBA is a great example of this), or very strict timing (MUSICAL 9-line, CLASSIC 11 on anything other than pop'n 12 CS). However, because the highest window for timing is accurate, I don't believe these should be disallowed.

Since these songs are consistently timed this way, these songs should probably be allowed, but I would like to hear some opinions on the matter. Do you think picking one of these songs on your opponent is unfair in any way? You both have the opportunity to practice them and be consistent at scoring on them, so why would they be disallowed now?



Also, should 5 key charts (such as LIGHT MOTION and 20, november GOLD) be allowed in IIDX? What about in bmus tournaments, since it is a distinct mode rather than a chart accessible in 7-keys mode? I don't see a reason why they should not be allowed, as you are given a results screen and the chart is legitimately different from 7 keys. 5 key as a modifier should be disallowed since it disqualifies, but why do you think charts specifically for 5-key should or should not be allowed?
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